[Mkguild] Re: MKGuild Digest, Vol 19, Issue 2
Mark Lowell
nighthawkmal2 at gmail.com
Mon Oct 6 17:15:27 EDT 2008
In Valdemar,the Heralds of Valdemar series by Mercedes Lackey, the
Hawkbrothers' mages used magical enchanced hummingbirds to send messages
from one Vale to another one. The message are like VCR of someone talking to
the one who they want to send a message to.
This system is a great idea.
On 10/5/08, mkguild-request at lists.integral.org <
mkguild-request at lists.integral.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting (Pontos)
> 2. Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting
> (JL Badgley)
> 3. Re: Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK
> setting (Pontos)
> 4. Re: Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK
> setting (JL Badgley)
> 5. Re: Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting (Fizzie)
> 6. Re: Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting (JL Badgley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:14:42 -0300
> From: Pontos <daemonpontos at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting
> To: Hallan Mirayas <hallanmirayas at hotmail.com>
> Cc: MKGuild <mkguild at lists.integral.org>
> Message-ID: <48E79672.8050608 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed
>
> Yes, but that would still be ground based. The idea is to reduce the
> time a letter takes to be delivered in long distance travels.
>
> Pontos
>
> Hallan Mirayas wrote:
> > Don't forget trade caravans. They could drop off letters on the way
> > as well.
> >
> > Hallan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 07:44:07 +1000
> From: "JL Badgley" <tatsushu at gmail.com>
> Subject: Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting
> To: "Metamor Keep" <mkguild at lists.integral.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7b4179080810041444j3602d572k4b082bca454c84af at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> Sorry... sent this just to Hallan!
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > So, following the advise I was given on IRC yesterday, I'm posting this
> here
> > so we all can discuss and express our opinions on the matter.
> > It came to my mind the idea to implement a relatively organized system =
to
> > deliver letters within the continent where MK resides (and perhaps
> > overseas). It would have birds as the deliverers, working pretty much
> like
> > the homing pigeons used in the real world
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail#Other_systems).
> >
> > Now, there are a few things to have in mind. First of all, it will
> obviously
> > not work like the postal service of nowadays (Where one specifies an
> exact
> > destination address), but having birds with two specific known points to
> > travel to and from. For example, only big cities would have "Post
> offices",
> > and from there the letters would get delivered by ground as usual to
> either
> > that city or the surrounding lands.
>
> This is a good idea with some limitations as I see them. First off,
> there has to be a location that is willing to keep the birds--either a
> private group of entrepreneurs, wealthy individuals, or governments.
> Second, the stability of the system would be based largely on the
> centers through which they travel. Also, while magic may be used,
> distance may be an issue. So, for instance, someone in Yamato may not
> be able to send a bird direct to MK; likewise for someone in the
> Southlands.
>
> I would tend to want to make the overall system for Important notices
> only. Importance generally being determined by the user. I could see
> the Duke's wedding being coordinated this way. I don't foresee Johnny
> sending a note through the system to his Aunt Em. If you are an
> important noble or wealthy merchant, maybe you have your own birds.
> Also, if there are centers for it, governments will want to have some
> control over who sends and receives messages, and will probably want
> to be able to read all of the traffic. This means that most
> embassies, if they want to send home word about the host city or
> government, would want to use their own courier birds or somehow
> encrypt their messages (a common enough practice in the middle ages
> amongst those who understood how).
>
> Remember: Faster communication =3D smaller world. A lot more
> interaction can occur, and historically did in our world, as
> communication improved. This is definitely a leap.
>
> As to how to implement it...
>
> My assumption is that currently there are several types of message
> delivery:
>
> 1) Traders and caravans--if you know someone is going in a certain
> direction, you give them letters to take with them, possibly with a
> small handling charge. This can mean your letter doesn't reach
> someone for months, depending on where that caravan goes, and it can
> be particularly tricky to find someone who keeps moving, as your
> letter will likely 'follow' them as they move around.
>
> 2) Homing pigeons--There are some homing pigeons (or similar avian
> substitutes) at work. The Aelves have used them, for example. It
> isn't unreasonable to think that certain nobles regularly trade homing
> pigeons for this purpose--I don't know how far a homing pigeon can be
> before it tends to get lost. Magic may help, but see below...
>
> 3) Dragons--Whales uses dragons as immediate message couriers. They
> are intelligent enough to carry a message and strong enough to defend
> it. However, the problems are likely obvious (e.g. is any dragon
> going to become a 'regular' mail courier?)
>
> 4) Magic--We have several examples of magically projecting oneself (or
> an image of oneself) over long distances using specific foci.
> Os-Var-Khai and Misha's sister have both used such technologies.
>
> So some kind of leap in courier service isn't entirely out of the
> question. I'd start with Official State Communications between
> administrative officials. Then, someone could pick up on that idea
> and grow it further. Think, though, about all the debates the
> Internet have caused among various governments and you have some idea
> of the pushback you're going to receive.
>
> Hope those ideas help. I haven't really thought it through, just some
> random musings of a very interesting topic.
>
> -Tatsushu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:46:32 -0300
> From: Pontos <daemonpontos at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK
> setting
> To: JL Badgley <tatsushu at gmail.com>
> Cc: MKGuild <mkguild at lists.integral.org>
> Message-ID: <48E80058.1020903 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed
>
> I don't see overseas locations as a priority, or even within the
> possibilities of a normal bird.
> To limit the system only for official matters or for wealthy people
> seems like a good idea; an open-to-the-public service is not exactly
> going to happen in such time.
> For longer travels I think domesticated birds bigger than homing pigeons
> will be better (Hawks and the like).
>
> So as you say, this could be implemented in a smaller scale basically
> only to improve the communication between different rulers around the
> continent. Whales (or the southlands for that matter) still have their
> dragons for such task.
> Certainly that seems more likely to happen before a full fledged open
> service. After all, normal letters are being sent in the best (or only)
> way available to people at the time, and none of them being anywhere as
> organized as a mail service.
>
> Pontos
>
> JL Badgley wrote:
> > Sorry... sent this just to Hallan!
> >
> >
> > This is a good idea with some limitations as I see them. First off,
> > there has to be a location that is willing to keep the birds--either a
> > private group of entrepreneurs, wealthy individuals, or governments.
> > Second, the stability of the system would be based largely on the
> > centers through which they travel. Also, while magic may be used,
> > distance may be an issue. So, for instance, someone in Yamato may not
> > be able to send a bird direct to MK; likewise for someone in the
> > Southlands.
> >
> > I would tend to want to make the overall system for Important notices
> > only. Importance generally being determined by the user. I could see
> > the Duke's wedding being coordinated this way. I don't foresee Johnny
> > sending a note through the system to his Aunt Em. If you are an
> > important noble or wealthy merchant, maybe you have your own birds.
> > Also, if there are centers for it, governments will want to have some
> > control over who sends and receives messages, and will probably want
> > to be able to read all of the traffic. This means that most
> > embassies, if they want to send home word about the host city or
> > government, would want to use their own courier birds or somehow
> > encrypt their messages (a common enough practice in the middle ages
> > amongst those who understood how).
> >
> > Remember: Faster communication =3D smaller world. A lot more
> > interaction can occur, and historically did in our world, as
> > communication improved. This is definitely a leap.
> >
> > As to how to implement it...
> >
> > My assumption is that currently there are several types of message
> delivery:
> >
> > 1) Traders and caravans--if you know someone is going in a certain
> > direction, you give them letters to take with them, possibly with a
> > small handling charge. This can mean your letter doesn't reach
> > someone for months, depending on where that caravan goes, and it can
> > be particularly tricky to find someone who keeps moving, as your
> > letter will likely 'follow' them as they move around.
> >
> > 2) Homing pigeons--There are some homing pigeons (or similar avian
> > substitutes) at work. The Aelves have used them, for example. It
> > isn't unreasonable to think that certain nobles regularly trade homing
> > pigeons for this purpose--I don't know how far a homing pigeon can be
> > before it tends to get lost. Magic may help, but see below...
> >
> > 3) Dragons--Whales uses dragons as immediate message couriers. They
> > are intelligent enough to carry a message and strong enough to defend
> > it. However, the problems are likely obvious (e.g. is any dragon
> > going to become a 'regular' mail courier?)
> >
> > 4) Magic--We have several examples of magically projecting oneself (or
> > an image of oneself) over long distances using specific foci.
> > Os-Var-Khai and Misha's sister have both used such technologies.
> >
> > So some kind of leap in courier service isn't entirely out of the
> > question. I'd start with Official State Communications between
> > administrative officials. Then, someone could pick up on that idea
> > and grow it further. Think, though, about all the debates the
> > Internet have caused among various governments and you have some idea
> > of the pushback you're going to receive.
> >
> > Hope those ideas help. I haven't really thought it through, just some
> > random musings of a very interesting topic.
> >
> > -Tatsushu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:11:05 +1000
> From: "JL Badgley" <tatsushu at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK
> setting
> To: Pontos <daemonpontos at gmail.com>
> Cc: MKGuild <mkguild at lists.integral.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7b4179080810050011h4ed55195tfac1d236b70c9cf3 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Pontos <daemonpontos at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't see overseas locations as a priority, or even within the
> > possibilities of a normal bird.
> > To limit the system only for official matters or for wealthy people see=
ms
> > like a good idea; an open-to-the-public service is not exactly going to
> > happen in such time.
> > For longer travels I think domesticated birds bigger than homing pigeons
> > will be better (Hawks and the like).
>
> I wouldn't use hawks. I'm not aware of raptors generally being the
> best for something like this, and for distance I would look at
> seabirds and birds used to long times in the air--maybe vultures and
> condors? Raptors have a 'cool' factor, but I see them built a lot
> more for going out on a foray and coming back to the nest with a meal.
> An albatross, tern (perhaps too small), or vulture strike me as birds
> that stay on the wing for long periods of time, meaning they can cover
> long distances. Any migratory bird is probably a good bet, as they
> have both the distance and the ability to 'remember' where they need
> to go. In fact, there's a thought: Birds that 'migrate' between
> various locales. That would allow for lots of birds to travel at
> once, meaning you could have more 'mail' delivered (would it be called
> 'mail'? I believe 'post' comes from the various 'post stations' that
> were set up in different cultures... not sure what this would be
> called...).
>
> > So as you say, this could be implemented in a smaller scale basically
> only
> > to improve the communication between different rulers around the
> continent.
> > Whales (or the southlands for that matter) still have their dragons for
> such
> > task.
> > Certainly that seems more likely to happen before a full fledged open
> > service. After all, normal letters are being sent in the best (or only)
> way
> > available to people at the time, and none of them being anywhere as
> > organized as a mail service.
>
> Not necessarily. In the East, I'm modeling some systems off of
> traditional China, who had a fairly developed system for sending
> communication (and officials) long distances. I'm pretty sure the
> Romans had something, too.
>
> Here's a good start:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail
>
> Plus, with the current hostilities erupting in the south, I don't
> think that a new mail service will spread too far, too fast. I'd say
> start local: Develop a 'better' system for the Valley. Then expand
> it to the rest of the Midlands. As it proves itself, show it
> expanding farther--probably Metamor Keep as the initial head (so
> something from Yesulam to Pyralis would theoretically go to Metamor
> and then back to Pyralis), and then eventually finding more
> efficiencies.
>
> Each kingdom will have its own rules, and how are you going to pay the
> postmasters? Are they doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?
> I would assume a carte blanche style system would be set up already,
> as was utilized by travelers in the middle ages.
>
> Just some more thoughts.
>
> -Tatsushu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 02:25:52 -0500
> From: Fizzie <kaufmabr at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting
> To: mkguild at lists.integral.org
> Message-ID:
> <229143fc0810050025k6eb18486x9539ddc6df71ec52 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>
> You could make the mail delivery system look like a tree. As in that a
> person will come by about once a week or once a month, depending on were =
or
> how important a place is, to pick up the local mail. Then that person
> takes
> it to a bigger city were it works its way to progressively bigger cities
> and
> then to the destination. You could have the postal service sponsored by
> the
> government, but the users still pay a postage tax or whatever. Make it
> were
> the postal run to Metamor is the least favorite route or a punishment. N=
ow
> for the people that want to get something somewhere fast there could be
> something out there like a Pony Express. Were they have a series of
> stables
> set along the roads were a express man can change out his current horse f=
or
> a new one, or pass it on to a new rider. But the express works 24 hours=
a
> day 7 days a week and will take something anywhere.
>
> Fizzie
>
> Ps. Not to sure how the whole tree like postal service idea will come
> across. I have a picture and idea in my head but cant exactly put it into
> words......ohh well :)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:44:43 +1000
> From: "JL Badgley" <tatsushu at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] Messages and Letters delivery on MK setting
> To: Fizzie <kaufmabr at gmail.com>
> Cc: mkguild at lists.integral.org
> Message-ID:
> <7b4179080810050044s7513db38q511d5a479dff813b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>
> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Fizzie <kaufmabr at gmail.com> wrote:
> > You could make the mail delivery system look like a tree. As in that a
> > person will come by about once a week or once a month, depending on were
> or
> > how important a place is, to pick up the local mail. Then that person
> takes
> > it to a bigger city were it works its way to progressively bigger cities
> and
> > then to the destination. You could have the postal service sponsored by
> the
> > government, but the users still pay a postage tax or whatever. Make it
> were
> > the postal run to Metamor is the least favorite route or a
> punishment. Now
> > for the people that want to get something somewhere fast there could be
> > something out there like a Pony Express. Were they have a series of
> stables
> > set along the roads were a express man can change out his current horse
> for
> > a new one, or pass it on to a new rider. But the express works 24 hou=
rs
> a
> > day 7 days a week and will take something anywhere.
>
> For an efficient system I think you want a hub-and-spoke topology.
> However, efficiency often gets overridden by other concerns.
>
> Also, Pontos, what are you doing to protect the birds from dangers
> (e.g. other birds, getting lost, etc.)?
>
> -Tatsushu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> MKGuild mailing list
> MKGuild at lists.integral.org
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>
>
> End of MKGuild Digest, Vol 19, Issue 2
> **************************************
>
-- =
TTFN!!!
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