<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All right but I can see Thomas with a personal Coat of Arms<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Metamor with some sort of emblem<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And the Duke having some sort of official emblem.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How does that sound?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org [mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryx<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 07, 2013 5:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> mkguild@lists.integral.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>House Hassan has a banner, but it seldom flies alone. The banner would often be flown alongside the Metamor banner (that does not have House regalia), or be combined together to form the banner of Metamor Keep under its current ruling family.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Duke Thomas has a Coat of Arms, which is worn on his formal attire. He does not have a 'personal' banner, using the House Hassan banner as such.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Metamor has a banner (this is the most common banner seen around the keep itself), typically this will have the heraldry of the current ruling house upon it in some way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Banners for a united Metamor would usually be nothing more than House banners with some sort of Metamor iconography to denote allegiance, but they would all stand with the Metamor Keep banner. Typically slightly behind, or on slightly shorter poles, than the primary banner of Metamor under Hassan.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Narwhal KillerNarwhal <<a href="mailto:supernova619@gmail.com">supernova619@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> christian okane <<a href="mailto:chrisokane@optimum.net">chrisokane@optimum.net</a>> <br><b>Cc:</b> Ryx <<a href="mailto:sundansyr@yahoo.com">sundansyr@yahoo.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 7, 2013 1:44 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv529466373><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Okay, that sounds fine by me, but... what does each look like?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:19 PM, christian okane <<a href="mailto:chrisokane@optimum.net" target="_blank">chrisokane@optimum.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>How does this sound:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The Duke of Metamor has an emblem - with the rearing red horse</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>THOMAS Hassan has a personal emblem</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>And Metamor Keep itself has an emblem</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>European Heraldry certainly was complex and confusing and had things like that all the time. England the country had an emblem (called the flag now), There was an emblem for the King (or Queen) of England and the ruler had his (or her) own personal emblem.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Chris</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The Lurking Fox</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> <a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryx<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 06, 2013 7:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>As I mentioned, I was not particularly familiar with House Hassan as it was prior to the curse, and am more than willing to accept the horse heraldry as always being extant there.<br><br>I was merely offering conjecture, based on a quick and admittedly limited examination of Heraldry throughout history, as it may be used in the world, both for Hassan and Metamor itself (which is only recently held under the titular rule of Hassan). Kyia would have established her own Heraldry for the Keep itself as that came into more common usage. She is, as ever, malleable to the customs and wonts of her residents.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> C. Matthias <<a href="mailto:jagille3@vt.edu" target="_blank">jagille3@vt.edu</a>><br><b>To:</b> christian okane <<a href="mailto:chrisokane@optimum.net" target="_blank">chrisokane@optimum.net</a>>; 'Alex Green' <<a href="mailto:alexsurikat@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexsurikat@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 5, 2013 4:59 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br><br>> Comments?<br><br>I rather like Ryx suggestions as to the nature of the heraldry as it goes along more with what I originally thought and have tried to describe in my stories. However, Alex is also right, the heraldry has always featured a horse.<br><br>I'm sorry I haven't been more talkative on this subject, but I'm getting packed to go to a convention and my daughter needs me a lot.<br><br>May He bless you and keep you in His grace and love,<br><br>Charles Matthias<br><br>> <br>> From: <a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a>] On Behalf Of christian okane<br>> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 12:16 AM<br>> To: 'Alex Green'<br>> Cc: 'C. Matthias'; <a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a><br>> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo<br>> <br>> Ok. So it gets more confusing instead of clearer. BUT A long time ago I actually chatted with the real Thomas Hassan about what Duke Thomas' heraldry was. He gave the following answer A Red Rearing horse on a black background. He deliberately chose something like the Ferrari car emblem for the Duke. And I have been hating him for that ever since. But Hassan is long gone from MK and I am willing to listen to the people who care about MK - which is us.<br>> <br>> <br>> Chris<br>> The Lurking Foxc<br>> <br>> <br>> From: <mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild-bounces@lists.integral.org</a>] On Behalf Of Alex Green<br>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:51 PM<br>> Cc: <mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>; christian okane; C. Matthias<br>> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo<br>> <br>> Those are some good suggestions. However there is one point that I must disagree with you on:<br>> <br>> <br>> The adoption of the horse heraldry is new, chosen after the Curse. Previous to that it could've been anything (I know little of the Hassan house history; griffon or drake would seem likely).<br>> <br>> <br>> The have been a couple stories that indicate the horse has always been a part of the Hassan family heraldry.<br>> <br>> This sentence from "Lots" shows how Thomas thinks about being changed to match his heraldry<br>> <br>> <br>> The tablecloth was laced with golden thread, and an artistic blending of the Hassan horse heraldry – he’d always found that terribly ironic after the curse changed him – and the fields and flowers of the valley.<br>> <br>> <br>> And in this scene from "Landing in a New Age", Andwyn finds it strange that Dupré would end up a ram like his family's symbol till Thomas points out the same thing happened to him. Malisa goes on to say that it's still a very rare circumstance.<br>> <br>> “It would be very unusual for the Curse to strike in so coincidental a fashion,” Andwyn mused quietly.<br>> <br>> “It happened to me,” Thomas pointed out. “The Hassan coat of arms has always featured a rearing horse.”<br>> <br>> “But not to any of your other vassals,” Malisa pointed out. “Perhaps this is a sign to us as well as to him. If he is truly changed to reflect his family’s sigil, then he may be meant to stay here and serve you.”<br>> <br>> <br>> I missed the above reference to a rearing horse in my previous search, so it would seem that Matt originally used a rearing horse as the symbol and only later started describing it as a horse-head.<br>> <br>> -AlexSurikat<br>> <br>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Ryx <<mailto:<a href="mailto:sundansyr@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sundansyr@yahoo.com</a>><a href="mailto:sundansyr@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sundansyr@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>> Let's try this:<br>> The banner of Metamor itself, alone, not withstanding of the ruling House is a castle of three towers, below each a gate. Gray on green (castle stone, valley green). The shape of the banner itself is up to the tailor making it.<br>> <br>> Duke Thomas' banner is a stallion (or just horse) rampant dexter (rearing, facing right) with a bend sinister (bar, crossing opposite the rampant dexter). The banner itself is blue (for House Hassan), the horse typically red (for his Knighthood), but when placed on the banner of Metamor the horse may be blue. The top of either banner would have crenelations or 'embattled line' to indicate the fortress nature of Metamor. The remeberance of the Tree Gates may be included below the horse by some symbology on more complex banners. Usually just three free-standing castle-style arched portals at the feet of the horse, or slightly behind denoting that the Horse, and House Hassan, holds the Keep.<br>> <br>> Historically blue meant Truth and Loyalty, and red Martial arms. Since Thomas rules over a peaceful kingdom over a conquesting one blue would be a more appropriate color. (<<a href="http://www.oshel.com/symbols.htm" target="_blank">http://www.oshel.com/symbols.htm</a>><a href="http://www.oshel.com/symbols.htm" target="_blank">http://www.oshel.com/symbols.htm</a>)<br>> <br>> <br>> The adoption of the horse heraldry is new, chosen after the Curse. Previous to that it could've been anything (I know little of the Hassan house history; griffon or drake would seem likely).<br>> <br>> <br>> From: Alex Green <<mailto:<a href="mailto:alexsurikat@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexsurikat@gmail.com</a>><a href="mailto:alexsurikat@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexsurikat@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: C. Matthias <<mailto:<a href="mailto:jagille3@vt.edu" target="_blank">jagille3@vt.edu</a>><a href="mailto:jagille3@vt.edu" target="_blank">jagille3@vt.edu</a>><br>> Cc: christian okane <<mailto:<a href="mailto:chrisokane@optimum.net" target="_blank">chrisokane@optimum.net</a>><a href="mailto:chrisokane@optimum.net" target="_blank">chrisokane@optimum.net</a>>; "<mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>" <<mailto:<a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:mkguild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">mkguild@lists.integral.org</a>><br>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:34 PM<br>> <br>> Subject: Re: [Mkguild] possible MK banner/logo<br>> <br>> After searching through the archives for a while, I was surprised to find that there aren't very many descriptions of the banner of Metamor.<br>> <br>> I found the most complete description at the bottom of the third page of Misha's "Plain and Simple"<br>> <br>> Thomas looked to the top of the ruined tower and noticed the flag fluttering in the breeze. It was a black flag with a red rearing horse on it. It was the flag of the House Hassan, Duke of Metamor, King of the Midland, his own banner.<br>> <br>> <br>> LurkingWolf's "Burning Time" also mention a rearing horse on the flag but neglects to mention the colors<br>> <br>> It appears Matt is the only one who's described it as a horse-head in both "Gazing through a Barred Window" and "Healing Wounds in Arabarb", but I didn't see any mention of colors from him either.<br>> <br>> Raven didn't mention what was on the flag, but he had a different idea about the colors of Metamor in "A Presence of Thieves"<br>> <br>> "That isn't the Duke's banner," he said, frowning up at the yellow flags flapping in the breeze. "Metamor's colors are blue and white. Why would they be flying yellow flags?"<br>> <br>> <br>> Matt confirms that blue is a customary color of the Hassan family in the first interlude of "The Last Tale of Yajakali" with several mentions of "Hassan Blue" but never actually states whether it's the color of the banner or not. (By the way, I just noticed that the title at the top of every page of LOTY has Yajakali spelled wrong as "Yajikali")<br>> <br>> The wiki unsurprisingly agrees with Misha since he's the one who added that information on the "Knights of the Red Stallion" page on the 16th of January 2007 (it specifically says that their emblem is the same as the Duke's). He also added the emblem information to the Duke's page earlier this month.<br>> <br>> That is all of the information I could find relating to the flag/banner/emblem of the House of Hassan/Metamor Keep, so it seems the it is a red/blue rearing-stallion/horse-head on a black/white background. I never noticed how inconsistent its description was before.<br>> <br>> -AlexSurikat<br>> <br>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:00 AM, C. Matthias <<mailto:<a href="mailto:jagille3@vt.edu" target="_blank">jagille3@vt.edu</a>><a href="mailto:jagille3@vt.edu" target="_blank">jagille3@vt.edu</a>> wrote:<br>> At 03:40 AM 2/21/2013, christian okane wrote:<br>> That is a nice looking emblem but one small problem. The Horse in the emblem has always been red.<br>> <br>> Chris<br>> The Lurking Fox<br>> <br>> The only reference to red in the emblem that I am aware of comes from the knightly order "Order of the Red Stallion". Please provide other official references (Wiki entries do not count).<br>> <br>> <br>> May He bless you and keep you in His grace and love,<br>> <br>> Charles Matthias<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> MKGuild mailing list<br>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild" target="_blank">http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild</a><br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> MKGuild mailing list<br>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a>><a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild" target="_blank">http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild</a><br>> <br>> <br><br>_______________________________________________<br>MKGuild mailing list<br><a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild" target="_blank">http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>MKGuild mailing list<br><a href="mailto:MKGuild@lists.integral.org" target="_blank">MKGuild@lists.integral.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild" target="_blank">http://lists.integral.org/listinfo/mkguild</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>