[Mkguild] Regarding "Covenants"

[C. Matthias]

>Christof supplied some answers, yes, enough that I'm warily willing 
>to wait and see.  But you're right, Matt... there's more to be 
>discussed, both from a theological sense and from a standpoint of 
>respecting other peoples' creations.

I hope that after we talk through these issues that you'll see there 
is no disrespect to other people's creations meant, intended, or affected.

> > Also, from a literary point of view, if the people of C.S. Lewis's
> > Peralandra haven't even Fallen yet, or the people of Narnia have
> > Aslan, then we should find it equally believable that the Tened
> > worshipped Eli, guided by their guardian Troud, or that prior to the
> > arrival of the aedra/daedra the other races also knew Eli to one
> > degree or another. After all, if Eli is the creator even of the
> > aedra and daedra, then it stands to reason that there would be some
> > places in the world that would know of Him. To have Eli come onto
> > the scene only after the Lightbringers were around strikes me as 
> implausible.
>
>I had to read this three times before I didn't see it implying that 
>the aedra/daedra were the cause for the Fall of Man.  And Elf.  And 
>Dragon.  And Binoq.  Et al.  If it did, I would be completely livid 
>at the disrespect to Raven, and the rewriting of canon.  Satan's 
>presence (as the 'Adversary') has already been established.  I'll 
>get back to this when I offer my suggestion for the aedra/daedra 
>side of the story.

I apologize for giving that impression.  There is no question that 
the Tened suffered their own fall as well, as Troud points out their 
chief sin is wrath.

> > As to Eli not acting to preserve the Tened, I think we find numerous
> > examples in Christian history of people who suffered greatly for the
> > faith only to end up dying cruel and miserable deaths. The parade of
> > martyrs that comes down to us from the Patristic Age, as well as many
> > of the more recent examples (St. Maximillian Kolbe comes to
> > mind). By enduring martyrdom, they won even greater merit for
> > themselves in Heaven, and their blood sowed the seeds of other
> > Christians.
>
>Your examples fail to grasp the scale of what I was saying.  For 
>your examples to properly contain the scope of the complete genocide 
>of which the aedra and daedra are being accused, they would have to 
>be examples of the complete and total obliteration of all Christians 
>and/or Israelites.  I sincerely doubt you'll find such an example.

No, you are right about that.  But we are dealing with established 
canon that the Tened are extinct.  That fact is inescapable, and we 
are trying to make some sense of it.  My view sees the return of the 
Tened presaging the fall of the pretenders as Troud called 
them.  Their fall being more a rebuke to the daedra and a humbling of 
the aedra for usurping a position that was not theirs to 
take.  Besides, we do not as yet know all that Eli actually did in 
that time, because I agree it is not possible for nothing to have been done.

> > And the prayers of the Tened were heard, but the answer
> > had to wait for the right time and that time has come with the
> > transformation of Jacob's family into true Tened, as well as Troud's
> > confession to Felsah that cleansed him of his own stains.
>
>"Your prayers for deliverance from your oppressors and the murderers 
>of your children are denied.  But don't worry- Thousands of years 
>from now, some humans will be magically changed into more of you and 
>your people will start anew.  Sure, they won't exactly be blood 
>relatives, but they'll look like you and act... well... they'll 
>probably act at least somewhat like you...  After all, your people 
>will be very nearly erased from history well before then, so it's 
>not like your 'descendants' will have much of a reference to go by."

Yeah, I'll leave that one for Christof.

> > So if there were Tened who decided to buckle under the disease and
> > death, I can see Tallakath killing them all anyway in a fit of pique.
>
>Which would go directly against what was said in the story, that the 
>disease would be taken away 'if you'd just worship us'.

Again, that was Troud speaking.  And here is a very plausible 
explanation of what happened.  Akkala could have offered healing in 
exchange for worship very easily; she already does in MK.  But 
unbeknownst to her, Tallakath is pursuing his grand experiment in 
poisoning children to see how long it takes them to die and to see 
how they handle such death.  The actual murder of the Tened could be 
laid entirely at the feet of the Daedra.  And because they wouldn't 
give the aedra worship, Akkala could do nothing.  That does not alter 
in the slightest the established personalities for the Daedra or 
Aedra.  In fact, the knowledge that the daedra played an active role 
in the death of the Tened could have been one of the reasons why the 
aedra cast the daedra into their little hells.

>So... my idea.  I think I'm going to have to timeline this.
>
>Eli creates world.  Eli creates humans, dragons, elves, etc.  The 
>Fall occurs.  Humans, dragons, et al, start into idolatry, 
>sun/star/ancestor/spaghetti monster worship.  You know- the 
>established pattern in history.
>
>The aedra and daedra arrive from... elsewhere.  (I know for certain 
>that Raven could give more specifics than me about this.)  They see 
>a world of people (and dragons and elves and...) worshiping things 
>that can't help them, and decide to do something about it.  Some to 
>help uplift, some just to take what they want from whomever they 
>can.  In the process of thoroughly trouncing lifeless idols, they 
>happen across tales of some being name 'Eli' (or whatever the Tened 
>are calling him at the time).  Given that they have no knowledge of 
>Him, prior experience suggests that this 'Eli' is just another made-up being...
>By the time they realize that there's more to this 'Eli' character 
>than anything they've come across before, it's too late for the 
>Tened (especially if, as seems to be suggested, Eli does absolutely 
>nothing).  So, when they next run into a group following Eli, this 
>being the Yehudim, they decide to leave them be, in order to further 
>investigate who or what this mysterious unknown might be.  This 
>handily explains why the Lothanasi are described in the wiki as not 
>persecutive toward the Yehudim.
>
>Please note: This is just my idea on the matter, and not anything official.

The only issue I have with this is that it goes back to who the aedra 
are in the first place, usurpers, or at least, poor stewards of the 
power given to them.  For this to make sense, they have to have 
forgotten their own origins.  There is no question that they 
experienced a fall of their own.  I'll let Christof share his own ideas.

May He bless you and keep you in His grace and love,

Charles Matthias