[Mkguild] On the adventure travel

[cokane8116 at aol.com]

Hello,


   A long reply here!





>>> MK setting is hard to compare to the Real World but it is roughly in the higher middle ages with some places like Metamor are just starting to enter the Renascence. But Magic >>>has a large effect on things - it allows people to 'Cheat' so to speak. BUT there are limits - somethings although cool just cannot be allowed,. The railroad was just one idea that >>>was shut down.


>>>I think a balloon is feasible - with considerable help from magic. A hot air balloon is easy to make - have it be a viable transport takes work and magic. Besides it does sound like >>>a good story and adventure! One point to consider is flying only during the day. Flying all day but stopping and landing at night could work. they could then get out to scrounge up food and water and look around a little.






>>>About the technology itself.

>>>I like the idea of them visiting places not used in MK, Open up new areas! And real Life history is filled with ideas discovered. lost and discovered all over again. Sometimes several times!







 
>>>>Good point about flying enemies! Their balloon will need some defenses! Perhaps a small ballista - really just an oversized crossbow. Something like this:
 http://www.siege-engine.com/babyballista/p6090006.jpg


>>>And of course regular archery could help defend it. But face it this thing whatever shape it has will not exactly be a flying fortress. I mean the British shot down many zeppelins in WW1 once they figured out the right tactics.

 



>>>And just to be a jerk about it - final say on things rests with me. I do listen to all points of view before making a choice but eventually a decision has to be made. It HAS cost us several writers - including several people who just didn't want to play well with others.


 >>>Writing in a SHARED universe requires some give and take on everyone's part but it has led to some great works and just plain fun.






Ideas? Comments?





Chris
The Lurking Fox
MK Universe Controller



----Original Message-----
From: Indagare . <brenner.mike at gmail.com>
To: Ryx <Sundansyr at yahoo.com>
Cc: mkguild <mkguild at lists.integral.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 20, 2017 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: [Mkguild] On the adventure travel



>Okay, the basic idea for the plot is sound.
It could also become a 'lost' discovery - considering the current Metamor cycle is 1400 years in the past when something as simple as an iron plowshare (should) be all but imaginary.  So someone using an odd collection of materials to float about the world could feasibly happen, and work well for a century or two, but eventually fall out of favor and fade away, becoming eventually lost and a myth (since the materials would all decay).  Or perhaps so prohibitively difficult to work with that after the initial expedition it's found unfeasible and shelved.
So, with that in mind, a rather profound anachronism could be touched upon, explored, but not prove disruptive to the overall world setting.
I kaiboshed railroads for that same reason - too disruptive and a thousand years out of time.  It cost us a decent writer, unfortunately.




Perhaps it could become the MK equivilent of the Antikythera mechanism? At some point it goes into storage and around the time the magic and curse returns it's unearthed again? I never intended it to disrupt the overall world setting, just give people a reasonable way to explore far shores and maybe introduce some places that have only been sketched out. I know there's been some things in Irombi, and I figured this could help with revisiting there as well as Fan Shoar and other areas. It'd be a bit of a whirlwind trip around the Central Sea, but it could be fun.






>Forgecoldiron had a few valid points



Yeah, I've read all that, which made me ask about where the limits on this sort of thing were. Perhaps it might be better as a fictional story than as a real one - a story that some Keeper is writing about an imaginary trip around the Central Sea...something like Johnathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels but with less satire.


>Another important thing to consider; things *fly* in this worldsetting.  Some of those flying things are very large, and not altogether friendly - dragons, gryphons, roks, enchanted ballista/catapult shot.  How would they deal with the first two; intelligent.  Or the semi-intelligent (flying predators).  Or just obstinate (being shot at from the ground or by mounted flying attackers)?






Assuming the first two could be reasoned with? Probably treat with them. The latter would be more of an issue and given the logistical problems coming up with just having to bring maybe three Keepers and their equipment on board it's probably not a good idea to imagine them trying to place a ballista/catapult on board as well. They could presumably fly over ground shooters. Mounted flying attackers would be a definite problem.


-Indy





On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Ryx <Sundansyr at yahoo.com> wrote:



            
Okay, the basic idea for the plot is sound.
It could also become a 'lost' discovery - considering the current Metamor cycle is 1400 years in the past when something as simple as an iron plowshare (should) be all but imaginary.  So someone using an odd collection of materials to float about the world could feasibly happen, and work well for a century or two, but eventually fall out of favor and fade away, becoming eventually lost and a myth (since the materials would all decay).  Or perhaps so prohibitively difficult to work with that after the initial expedition it's found unfeasible and shelved.
So, with that in mind, a rather profound anachronism could be touched upon, explored, but not prove disruptive to the overall world setting.
I kaiboshed railroads for that same reason - too disruptive and a thousand years out of time.  It cost us a decent writer, unfortunately.




Forgecoldiron had a few valid points:


Spider silk would be a viable alternative to silk, though it'd have to be produced wherever said spiders reside which could be a rather dangerous prospect in itself.  There is also gossamer from more locally native caterpillars - or even cursed Keepers.  Again, the sheer volume of material needed would be immense.  So, let us say that the material chosen is lighter than silk, and tougher (spider webbing), at 0.2 oz/^2 yard.  Now let's look at the example Forgecoldiron was talking about... 1000lbs.  With a focus purely on extremely lightweight materials and a builder from [whatever the Japanese analogue is in MK] specializing in bamboo/reed construction a gondola could be made quite large.  Factor the weight of your three(?) explorers as well.  Each of them would have 100lbs of supplies, personal and otherwise.


The chief heat source for the envelope would be magical in nature - pyrock or other enchantments perhaps on the very envelope itself - spider silk would not withstand any fire enchantment, however.  That requires something that can withstand its own internal heat and the spell to hold it - a high quality crystal or mithril.  The design would be made around a conventional coal fire, however, just in case the magical heat source failed.


Someone else would come up with a Loadstone; a rock that could be made extremely heavy at need.  The enchantment was considered idiotically frivolous and the hapless mage who thought it up laughed at as a result - until merchants discovered the utility of uniform ballast stones that could be controlled (likely as a direct result of this expedition).  One or two of these would be used to control the balloon's loft.  Eight smaller versions of them could be used to actually steer it (the way sandbags do in current balloon piloting) if to a limited degree.  The complications of magic failing is pretty apparent with all of these items...
The weight of the gondola and envelope should be as free of magical manipulation as possible, otherwise it would never be able to fly (or escape) by conventional means.  Limit manipulation to the Loadstones and the loft source to the heating magic and, while terribly inconvenient, they could continue their journey by purely conventional means - though have to jettison a *lot* of material; supplies, discoveries, trade goods, stowaways....


Another important thing to consider; things *fly* in this worldsetting.  Some of those flying things are very large, and not altogether friendly - dragons, gryphons, roks, enchanted ballista/catapult shot.  How would they deal with the first two; intelligent.  Or the semi-intelligent (flying predators).  Or just obstinate (being shot at from the ground or by mounted flying attackers)?


Ryx.




                        
                
                                        
                        On Monday, November 20, 2017, 6:48:28 AM EST, Indagare . <brenner.mike at gmail.com> wrote:                    
                    


                    


                    


>Thats a cool looking airship! We are willing to fudge the facts so long as you do not take it too far. Perhaps keeping it a bit simply at first


*nods* 


>There is no protocol but its best to run things by me first if you are not sure or post to the mailing list and MK wiki.


Okay, I'll work on some things and post them here first.





>Well, those images are not entirely practical in the given era - certainly not the sausage shaped air bags or toting entire ships into the sky.  And they would have to find a prodigious source of silk or similar material - that's all that would be fine enough to be sealed and light enough to loft (that I know of).
You should look more toward early American Civil War attempts at recon balloons.  They were not terribly large and still tethered to the ground but would give some idea of early lighter than air craft.  Given a decade to work it out I'm sure the mages' guild and/or Murikeer could figure out how to make heavy things light enough to float, but certainly not fly.


>I am somewhat averse to certain anachronisms, much to the chagrin of past MK writers, and this one toes the line... so the less 'advanced' it is, the better.  Though, granted, with magic the 'basket' could be more akin to a small ship's cabin though barely so.  Enough for perhaps three somewhat small and light weight creatures, ostensibly one of them avian (?).  Some of the weight could be reduced with magic, enough to get the thing airborn, so it would not plummet if it entered areas where magic was cancelled - it would simply loose loft over time.  Mind you, the cancellation of magic in Yesulam is gradual so that would prevent a catastrophic failure even if the craft was held aloft entirely by magic.


Well, this is why I'm asking first. I don't want to thread too far and if it won't work, it won't work and I'll figure out something else. Just because something looks cool or seems like a good idea doesn't mean it'll work. My idea might work for the future MK (1000+) but not the present one.


>Also, it would be held aloft by heat rather than rare gasses.  That would be easily supplied by enchanted pyrocks (which are advanced apprentice enchanter objects, not exactly 'rare' aside from Guild market control demanding that the bulk of them be dis-enchanted rather than sold) created by anyone willing to take on the task..  One large enough, utilizing a very large flawless crystal of quartz or similar material (or a hefty chunk of mithril) would require more work to make usable by non-magic inclined operators.  It could be replaced with a perfectly normal (and far less efficient) fire should they become stranded where magic failed.

A rudimentary airbag would not have a relief valve at the top, so its loft would be controlled by manipulating the heat source.


Okay. I really appreciate the feedback! I know in real life the balloon is 'controlled' by making it rise to where a given air current is blowing, though exact control is impossible. There also needs to be a ground crew.


>Also, supplies would be a *very major* concern, since weight is all important and supplies add considerable weight.  Anything metal would have to be replaced with hardened (magically perhaps) wood or bone to save weight as well.





This is true too, though I suppose hunting would theoretically be possible. All the same, it's beginning to sound like some other idea would be better for a special twentieth anniversary story.


-Indy





On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Ryx <Sundansyr at yahoo.com> wrote:



            


Well, those images are not entirely practical in the given era - certainly not the sausage shaped air bags or toting entire ships into the sky.  And they would have to find a prodigious source of silk or similar material - that's all that would be fine enough to be sealed and light enough to loft (that I know of).
You should look more toward early American Civil War attempts at recon balloons.  They were not terribly large and still tethered to the ground but would give some idea of early lighter than air craft.  Given a decade to work it out I'm sure the mages' guild and/or Murikeer could figure out how to make heavy things light enough to float, but certainly not fly.


I am somewhat averse to certain anachronisms, much to the chagrin of past MK writers, and this one toes the line... so the less 'advanced' it is, the better.  Though, granted, with magic the 'basket' could be more akin to a small ship's cabin though barely so.  Enough for perhaps three somewhat small and light weight creatures, ostensibly one of them avian (?).  Some of the weight could be reduced with magic, enough to get the thing airborn, so it would not plummet if it entered areas where magic was cancelled - it would simply loose loft over time.  Mind you, the cancellation of magic in Yesulam is gradual so that would prevent a catastrophic failure even if the craft was held aloft entirely by magic.


Also, it would be held aloft by heat rather than rare gasses.  That would be easily supplied by enchanted pyrocks (which are advanced apprentice enchanter objects, not exactly 'rare' aside from Guild market control demanding that the bulk of them be dis-enchanted rather than sold) created by anyone willing to take on the task.  One large enough, utilizing a very large flawless crystal of quartz or similar material (or a hefty chunk of mithril) would require more work to make usable by non-magic inclined operators.  It could be replaced with a perfectly normal (and far less efficient) fire should they become stranded where magic failed.
A rudimentary airbag would not have a relief valve at the top, so its loft would be controlled by manipulating the heat source.


Also, supplies would be a *very major* concern, since weight is all important and supplies add considerable weight.  Anything metal would have to be replaced with hardened (magically perhaps) wood or bone to save weight as well.


Ryx.
                        
                

                                        
                        On Sunday, November 19, 2017, 10:55:35 PM EST, Indagare . <brenner.mike at gmail.com> wrote:                    
                    


                    


                    



I'm trying to figure out the logistics - how much should be based on actual science and how much folks here would be willing to have 'fudged' to allow the story to happen. One thing I particularly wanted was for it to fly without magic - so if it happens to cross over a magically dead area it won't immediately crash (though there could be other issues). I was looking up airships and came across a couple interesting ones:


https://bgoodscience.files. wordpress.com/2011/06/year- 2000-05.jpg?w=540 
https://us.123rf.com/450wm/ shamain/shamain1701/ shamain170100012/71106243- fantasy-steampunk-airship.jpg? ver=6

https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/ 2015/12/28/13/31/hot-air- balloon-1111356_960_720.png



Would everyone be okay with something like one of these existing?


Also, I was planning to do some work on Fan Shoar and Irombi - is there a particular protocol for introducing new areas?


-Indy


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