[Mkguild] FW: [TSA] Thoughts on Metamor Keep

[Chris]

This discussion got started on the TSA list but it needs to be mentioned
here.


   Comments and suggestions are welcome!


-----Original Message-----
From: tsa-talk-bounces at lists.integral.org
[mailto:tsa-talk-bounces at lists.integral.org] On Behalf Of Raven
Blackmane
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:15 AM
To: tsa-talk at lists.integral.org
Subject: Re: [TSA] Thoughts on Metamor Keep

The problem with the wiki is that it really isn't newcomer-friendly, at 
least as it's currently set up. The first page is a massive info-dump, 
/way/ too much information to put on a reader at once; I've never been 
able to read through the entire thing myself, and I /write/ in MK. As it

stands, the wiki is an excellent resource for writers seeking to 
collaborate in MK, but it's not set up in a way that's going to draw 
anyone new into the setting. For that you'd need a much briefer summary 
on the front page, maybe followed by links to some of the most important

elements of the setting. It's rather telling that the single most 
important event in the history of MK, the Battle of Three Gates, doesn't

even have a page describing it yet.

The problem Cubist describes is a real one: MK may be open and friendly 
to new /writers,/ but to new /readers/ it's confusing, as Kris's 
comments demonstrate. There's nothing in either MK story archive or the 
wiki to show readers which stories are most important for a new reader 
to absorb, or how the stories interconnect with one another. There's 
nothing in the archive to point out the key, pivotal moments in the 
setting: when major characters are introduced, when important plot 
shifts happen, etc. The new reader either has to start at #1 and read 
straight through, or they have to pick stories at random and hope they 
stumble on something that they like. Neither of these tactics is one 
that I would recommend.

Most of the short stories now being written in MK are /not/ intended for

new readers in the setting, for the very reason Cubist describes: 
there's not enough space in a short story to do a ton of introductory 
work. And as Cubist says, there's nothing inherently wrong with that; 
lots of fiction series in various formats -- ongoing comic book series, 
for instance -- are presented with the assumption that you have begun at

the beginning, or at least at the beginning of a story arc.  But what 
I'm seeing, and I think Cubist has confirmed with his observations, is 
that we haven't had any new "jumping on" points for a long time now.

I think that we may be due for a new introductory story, specifically 
designed to familiarize new readers with the setting of MK as it exists 
now. A lot has happened since Michael came to the Keep; I say that it's 
time for a new outsider to make the journey and see the world the way it

is now. A refugee fleeing from a town on the Sathmore/Pyralian border, 
for instance, would give the writer the opportunity to reveal the entire

religious struggle that is currently shaping Galendor's politics; any 
given Keeper might not know the details of what's going on down south, 
and the refugee could fill them in while also being introduced to 
concepts central to life in Metamor, like the workings of the Curse, the

variable geometry of the Keep, and the existence of Lady Kyia.  Of 
course, you'd have to weave this stuff into a plot that is interesting 
in its own right, so that the story can be interesting and engaging 
enough that people will read it and think, "I want to hear more about 
this Metamor place!"

This isn't really a new idea. Long-running comic books do the same thing

every few years, or even more often, so that they can give readers a 
place to begin without having to go through all the back issues. We 
could then tout the new intro story on the web page as a way to get into

the setting quickly, much as comic book publishers will splash an intro 
story's cover with the words "A NEW ADVENTURE BEGINS HERE!" or something

similar.

One other idea that would probably help story accessibility is if we 
have a page where stories are grouped by character arc. Matty's story 
cycles are a perfect example of this sort of thing, but you have to go 
to his website to find out where the cycles begin and end. It would be 
helpful to have a page of the archive where, say, you can find the first

story that features Misha as the main protagonist, and then follow his 
adventures through all of the subsequent stories where he's the star of 
the show. You could also have a Lightbringers arc, a Pascal arc, a 
Christopher/Wanderer arc, and a Saroth arc, to name just a few. Each 
story arc should begin with a story that is designed as a jumping-on 
point, or at least as a story that you can jump straight into 
immediately after reading either MK story #1 our our new, hypothetical 
"Fresh Start" story.

It's not enough for us to just /talk/ about how open we are to new 
people in MK. As individuals, we are, but the stories themselves are not

currently presented in a way that is friendly to newbies. If we really 
want to attract more people to our party, we need to do a better job of 
putting up signs and sending out invitations. :)

Just my $0.02 (in constant 1920 dollars, adjusted for inflation),

Raven

Chris wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsa-talk-bounces at lists.integral.org
> [mailto:tsa-talk-bounces at lists.integral.org] On Behalf Of
Cubist at aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:39 PM
> To: tsa-talk at lists.integral.org
> Subject: [TSA] Thoughts on Metamor Keep
>
>    Raven Blackmane asked a very good question which all MK writers
> should be mindfull of: How *do* you get MK-newbies up to speed? As
Kris
> Schnee's comments demonstrate, it's all very well and good to say
> something about how Keepers tend to stare in disbelief at 'taur-forms,
> and all the people with 150 MK stories under their belt (who know that
> 'taur-forms are a relatively new innovation) will nod and say to
> themselves "Yep, got *that* right"... but people who are *new* to the
> setting (who, therefore, *have no clue* about when 'taur-forms first
> popped up) are going to stare blankly and say "Huh? I don't get it."
>
>   
>>>> I have a hard time seeing what is issue with MK? We do have an
>>>>         
> archive with all the stories and a Wiki page that does describe
various
> things in detail like the taur form. The Wiki page greatly helps as it
> is chock full of all sorts of needed info. But wading thru all 200+
> stories is a BIG problem we still haven't licked yet. Any ideas?
>
>
>
>    Personally, I suspect MK may be too damned *big* to write short,
> one-off stories in any more. It takes a certain number of words to
> introduce the "variable geometry" schtick; it takes a certain number
of
> words to clue the reader in to this "Kyia" person; it takes a certain
> number of words to explain about the Ecclesia and Redeemers and yada
> yada yada; and so on, and so forth, with a certain number of words for
> each bit of setting-specific weirdness that shows up in the story.
>    Now, you can certainly try to *reduce* the number of words you
spend
> doing the introductions... but no matter *how* small that number of
> words ends up being, that number *will* be *greater than zero*. And
your
> story *will* take up that many words, right from the start, *on top
of*
> all the words you spend doing characterization and plot and scene
> description and  all the rest of it.
>    So maybe it takes, I dunno, 500 words total to introduce all the
> MK-specific stuff to the reader. If you're writing a mega-saga, WINTER
> ASSAULT or something, 500 words is a drop in the bucket; but if you're
> only trying for a 2,500-word short story, 500 words is *1/5* *of*
*the*
> *entire* *story*. And if you're hoping to write a 1,000-word short,
> those 500 words of *necessary introductory material* make up *HALF*
*OF*
> THE* *ENTIRE* *STORY*.
>    Okay, maybe I'm wrong about it taking 500 words to do a decent
> MK-intro -- maybe it's only 400, words, or 250. True... but then, it
> might also take *750* words, might it not? The precise number doesn't
> matter, because the point of my argument isn't the specific
word-count;
> rather, it's the fact that this intro-material *will* take up a
certain
> percentage of your total word-count, and the shorter your story, the
> larger a percentage of its word-count *will* be absorbed by the
> intro-material.
>    The bottom line: When you're writing MK, short stories are somewhat
> problematic -- and they're going to become *increasingly* problematic
as
> time goes on, and Charles Matthias writes more MK mega-sagas, and, in
> general, the setting accumulates *more and more STUFF* in it that
> newbies need to learn about before they can understand what the heck
is
> going on.
>    Okay, that's the problem. What's the solution?
>
>
>   
>>>> What's the problem? A new writer uses what they want. The variable
>>>>         
> geometry in part of the universe but if the writer doesn't want to
> mention it THEY DON'T. Same with the taur form. No problem. And please
> stop obsessing about counting words. I NEVER count the words in my
> stories. When it is done - it is done. We have stories in MK that are
> barely a page long and others in the hundreds of pages. The story is
> done when it is done. Not when it reaches word 500.
>
>
>    One possible solution is rephrasing the intro-material to reduce
its
> word-count, as mentioned above. This is fine as far as it goes... but
it
> only goes so far, also as mentioned above.
>    Another possible solution is to simply *leave out* certain aspects
of
> the setting. After all, if you never mention the 'variable geometry'
> schtick in the first place, you don't need to spend *any* words
> explaining it, right? This solution is nice and neat... but you do
have
> to be careful about *what* you leave out. What aspects of the Metamor
> Keep are so important, so central to the setting, that you pretty much
> *have to* include them *if you want to write MK in the first place*?
Me,
> I dunno. I'll leave it to people like Raven to figure out the
answer...
>
>
>   
>>>> Huh? Leave out stuff? A person puts in the story what they want to
>>>>         
> have there. Nothing is forced. Hallan mentions taur form (cause he
likes
> that) but barely mentions the variable geometry and makes no mention
of
> Nasoj at all! The character list on the MK wiki page is over 100
people
> long! No author HAS to mention all 100 of them. He uses who he wants.
>
>
>    A third possible solution: *Ignore* the newbies. Just *assume* that
> your readers *will* be as familiar with MK as *you* are, and go on
from
> there. Everything I've written in this message presumes that you *do*,
> in fact, want your story to be comprehensible to newbies... but there
> certainly isn't any rule which *demands* that MK stories be
> newbie-friendly, is there? And, equally, there isn't anything
> intrinsically wrong with writing stories that *aren't*
newbie-friendly.
> The trouble (it seems to me) comes when *every* story is opaque to
> newbies, when there's *nothing* that a newcomer to the setting can
read
> and understand and enjoy, because that (again, it seems to me) is a
> recipe for the setting's eventual decay and extinction.
>
>
>   
>>>> We will N E V E R ignore the newbies. E V E R ! ! !
>>>>         
>
>   
>>>> Metamor Keep was developed solely for new writers by Cope. And that
>>>>         
> is a premise and a promise that I faithfully follow. MK has a long
> tradition of being open and welcoming to new writers. Cope made me
> promise that when he gave me control of MK.
>
>   
>>>> Whenever you read or write in a Story universe like MK, TBP or NMF
>>>>         
> the reader HAS to understand that certain things are standard and
> expected. Like if you read Lord of the Rings, Narnia or Redwall. A
> newbie has to have some knowledge and preconceived ideas of the
stories
> and universe. That is why all Metamor Keep stories sent to the list
> should have MK at the front in the comments. Just as The Blind Pig has
> TBP.
>
>   
>>>> And MK must be doing something right as we are still going strong
>>>>         
> after all these years. In the time I've been writing MK I've seen some
> really cool universe come along and then sadly fade away like NMF did
> and TBP seems to be doing.
>
>
>    Enough ranting for tonight.
>    Goes back to lurking
>   
>    Chris Okane
>    The Lurking Fox
>    MK universe controller
>  
>
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