[Mkguild] Life Expectancy in MK universe

[Mark Lowell]

Asd to Kit's point...I still think it's a good one.:-)

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Kit <stormkit10 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well originally my including Olsen's story was because those arguing for
> the other side kept bringing it up and I wanted to point out that it was a
> very bad argument. Furthermore the fact that, as you say, those two were =
NOT
> experts and would be more likely to describe what they see than apply the
> term of 'old age' to a young child. That said, I think basing our argumen=
ts
> off of this brief appearance of death in one story is really stupid if all
> we have to base our arguments is casual wording.
>
> Now to address your first point. You are perfectly correct that they would
> not be able to identify individual causes of death and just associate it
> with old age. However, they would not be able to recognize these things as
> being killed the same way since they don't associate these things with su=
ch
> young looking and acting people. They wouldn't recognize a kid dying of a
> heart attack or stroke as having died from the same thing that killed the
> old guy down the street. To most people it would look like the old guy
> finally succumbed to his weakness whereas the kid would appear to just
> abruptly drop dead. They don't have the advantage of knowing both people
> were killed by the same thing. Now this point is kind of vague and we can
> argue over it quite a bit more, but since it's relating to what people
> perceive as old age and how this affects the argument through Olsen's sto=
ry,
> I say we leave it behind with the other arguments based off that scene. T=
he
> debate is more about what should happen to ARs when they eventually die, =
not
> what happened to the AR that DID die because, as we've already found, the
> evidence from that scene is inconclusive.
>
> Which brings me to your second argument. Yes, these things can still build
> up, but if we allow for heart attacks and stroke, than we also need to al=
low
> for poor eyesight, rheumatism, and all sorts of things that happen to old
> folk. If we go by this argument, then the ARs do in fact age while never
> hitting puberty. I think it is quite clear from established canon stories
> that this does not in fact happen, leading to either a mysterious death
> which can only be caused by the curse itself or having all of this aging
> compressed into the AR's final day of life. So while you bring up several
> interesting points, in the end we are right back where we started from.
>
> Kit
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:52 AM, Stephen Tigner <stephen.tigner at gmail.com=
>wrote:
>
>> I re-ordered the text I'm quoting in reply to, to consolidate it a bit.
>> n.n
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Kit <stormkit10 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > First, to answer your question: I was referring to the part where they
>> said
>> > he died of old age. The rest was showing why it wasn't evidence for
>> sudden
>> > death.
>>
>> Okay, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're making an
>> assumption that your argument about it supporting your argument of the
>> curse weakening and rapid aging before death is self-explanatory based
>> on the story's exposition. Which it isn't, at least not to me, sorry.
>> I would appreciate an explanation of exactly how the story shows
>> evidence _against_ "sudden death" as you put it. I can see not
>> supporting either, or supporting sudden death, given Berlin's wording,
>> but not against sudden death. And again, if I'm way off base in my
>> assumption here, please correct me. ^_-
>>
>> >Even if someone was killed by a heart attack, they'd be
>> > considered to just drop dead and not of old age.
>>
>> Would they really? That's one of the points I was trying to make. What
>> assumptions would be made by people, both commonly and by those who
>> would make official declarations in this setting? Would they really
>> have the knowledge or techniques to be able to determine it was a
>> "heart attack" for the reason of death and not just an assumption that
>> they just were really old and died suddenly because of it?
>>
>> Keep in mind that in the MK timeline, this curse hasn't been around
>> all that long, and so there's many unexplored and unexplained things
>> about it. Just as scientific knowledge had to be revised as new
>> discoveries were made, and there were some pretty crazy assumptions
>> (see Newton's "Corpuscular Theory" in optics, for an example).
>>
>> It could very well be that if they don't have the ability to as finely
>> distinguish the causes of death like we do nowadays, the assumption
>> could be made, if someone died of a stroke or a heart attack, for
>> instance, that it was just of old age.
>>
>> > That said, this point you bring up is a very convincing one. No one
>> > really does die of old age, old age just makes a person weak enough to
>> be
>> > killed by stuff that wouldn't kill a younger person. In fact this
>> argument
>> > almost convinced me until I realize that these heart attacks and other
>> > natural causes couldn't kill a person unless they are weakened by
>> something
>> > such as old age.
>> ...
>> > The whole point of the AR
>> > curse in many people's eyes is that victims don't start to get weaker
>> with
>> > age. A 90 year old kid would be just as energetic as a 15 year old one.
>> > Granted childhood diseases could take out several and random chance and
>> > violence several more, but those that don't have nothing to make them
>> weak
>> > enough as time goes on to be taken out by such 'natural causes'. Unless
>> the
>> > curse has some sort of inherent time limit (a case I'm willing to
>> consider),
>> > then something needs to happen to make them weak enough to be killed by
>> > infirmities.
>>
>> I expected this argument actually. n.n Which is why I mentioned the
>> fact that young people can and do die unexpectedly, and due to causes
>> (such as strokes) that you'd normally associate with old age. They
>> don't necessarily have to have been "weakened" by age to succumb to
>> death by "natural causes". I also mentioned an example of cholesterol
>> plaques eventually clogging up arteries and causing heart attacks as
>> one example of something that wouldn't be affected by the fact the
>> body isn't breaking down.
>>
>> I believe one of the reasons why you don't see heart attacks sooner is
>> that it takes years to build up those plaques. The body can stay
>> youthful, but things like that can still build up, over time. Sure age
>> weakens the heart, but if it's clogged, it's clogged, regardless of
>> age.
>>
>> Oh! Don't forget stuff like cancer as well. Some carcinogens do occur
>> naturally, and they may not know about the existence of cancer. And
>> that can cause death fairly quickly depending on the cancer, sometimes
>> with little or no notice, and effects people of all ages, but again,
>> could be construed as dying of "old age".
>>
>> There may be other maladies they could succumb to that wouldn't be
>> tied to age either, but could be blamed on them, but heart attack,
>> stroke, and cancer are the ones that come to mind as examples right
>> now.
>>
>> So I think the argument here comes down to: Medical
>> knowledge/techniques available, and assumptions linked to such. And
>> the likelihood of an AR suddenly dying of one of a malady that because
>> of the former would be called dying of old age.
>>
>> To summarize the first: Again I contend that with the state of
>> medicine as it is then, they may not be able to as finely determine
>> cause of death as they can now, and just may attribute any number of
>> causes, some of which may effect ARs, with faulty assumptions about
>> ARs dying of "old age" due to the newness of the curse and how much is
>> unknown about it.
>>
>> (Extra note that just occurred to me) Also, the two speaking aren't
>> exactly medical practitioners, and even if they *had* a specific
>> reason, the characters could have just automatically associated such
>> (like a heart attack) with old age, and assumed they died of old age.
>>
>> And summary of the second: Contributing factors to diseases of 'old
>> age' can still be there, even if the body itself isn't breaking down
>> due to age. These factors, and the diseases themselves, can affect
>> younger folks as well (stroke, heart attack, cancer, for example).
>>
>> Sorry if that was rambling a bit, but I hope it makes sense. n.n
>>
>> -- Stephen
>>
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TTFN!!!
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